組織者法律上的責任.

ALEXYIM

週日有一個hiker意外死亡.
新聞有報導.  不在這裡重複描述.

只是一點大家要留意.

組織者法律上有什麼責任?
填寫了一份免責聲明,是否組織者在任何情形下,什麼責任也沒有?
參加者填寫了一份免責聲明,但臨時他帶了一個朋友來,組織者知道,但帶來的朋友沒有填寫免責聲明,組織者是否免責呢?

我不是法律專家, 提議自己上網查看, 作出定論.

我自己的定論是... 會繼續組織, 但是自己完全100%控制或限制活動的安排和組織.

這個是"龙门茶馆"論壇, 喜歡說什麼就什麼.



:lol:  :lol:

lulululu

提得很好，多谢Alex!

yin G

其实最近我一直想把这个问题提出来让大家讨论。现在我们有很多队友做过或者将要给另一个组织做义务领队。我从这个 组织的网页上看到的宣传却是请的专业领队， 那么假如出事了， 责任算谁的呢？真要打官司， 比较麻烦，义工其实不认识他们要带的队伍，不知道他们的能力, 无法控制队伍。而义工只能算是有经验的Hiker,  这些人可能连最基本的first aid 证书都没有， 当然就不是professional的。

我记得North Shore hiking club也是有年费的组织， 他们的年费有一部分是用来购买保险的， 任何一个想参加他们活动的非会员， 必须购买保险才能参加， 这样发生了意外， 就好办多了。

不知道能否跟对方组织协商买保险和义工领队的免责问题。这些都应该形成法律的文件才好。

我不是法律专家， 只是来得早， 想得多一点。我喜欢Alex的话， 想说什么就说什么 :lol:

lulululu

关于专业领队的提法，我和laowei一看到就给他们提意见了并要求以后发和由我们领队的hiking信息要先给我们check，我们说我们只是一群热心和有多年行山经验的老hiker们志愿义工根本就不是专业领队，他们答应改也改了，但说已发出去的改不了了.....

我想义工帮助更多的移民体验安全健康快乐的爬山，传播安全理念，也是大大地减轻搜救队的负担......

上上周五，我和laowei志愿地给户外社团做了一个近二个小时的hiking讲座，主要讲的是户外安全，爬山装备，和一些经历经验和技巧等。希望能多多地传播户外常识和安全知识

小C

前兩年我們參加過西人的cross country ski club,  參加活動一定要做會員，所付會員費就是用來買insurance, 另每次活動要付相關費用。

我媽媽參加了中國人的耆英組織很久，現在老人會歸納入Renfrew Community管轄，媽媽投訴現正在沒有旅行活動，因社區中心要求他們每次活動一定要替參加者買保險，還有巴士上要有一個懂急救的人跟車。耆英中心真是非謀利組織，每次活動只是像徵收一個小費用來幫補開支，何來有錢買燕梳，所以現在只有室內活動了。 :(  :(  :(

PanShiBo

In the past I was advised by a lawyer that in British Columbia it needs only $500 to take anybody to court for anything. So if someone dies on your trip, the relatives can easily sue you, even if the case is tossed out of court, you will go through hell, plus pay your lawyer. For that reason clubs such as BCMC carry liability insurance - that protects the trip organizer and the club from being sued. This is not travel emergency medical insurance, not life insurance and not climbing insurance - it is meant to protect from legal losses. Those who are not convinced how easy it is to being sued, can google for the accident on Mount Temple, most deadly to date on this peak, when a group of absolute beginners died because of own ignorance, and the relatives sued the park (Banff) for not providing the accurate weather conditions... they lost the case of course, but only after a nasty battle in court.. 8)

yin G

谢谢博士。North shore hiking club就是买的这个保险, 我忘了名字了。

PanShiBo

Things can become ugly real quick. Especially when relatives were put in dare financial situation because of the accident, like in need to provide expensive life-time support for the victim who was badly hurt (example see here). The more you own the more likely they will be after you. If they have a "good" lawyer, they can sue you even if the case is hopeless - it is a well known and often used tactics in courts - called Risk Aversion: even though chances are tiny, when a person has a lot to lose he often would prefer settlement out of court  rather than go on trial - who would not seriously consider giving away $10,000 when he could lose his $1M house - without liability insurance the odds are never exactly zero?

Lynn2014

yin G
其实最近我一直想把这个问题提出来让大家讨论。现在我们有很多队友做过或者将要给另一个组织做义务领队。我从这个 组织的网页上看到的宣传却是请的专业领队， 那么假如出事了， 责任算谁的呢？真要打官司， 比较麻烦，义工其实不认识他们要带的队伍，不知道他们的能力, 无法控制队伍。而义工只能算是有经验的Hiker,  这些人可能连最基本的first aid 证书都没有， 当然就不是professional的。

我记得North Shore hiking club也是有年费的组织， 他们的年费有一部分是用来购买保险的， 任何一个想参加他们活动的非会员， 必须购买保险才能参加， 这样发生了意外， 就好办多了。

不知道能否跟对方组织协商买保险和义工领队的免责问题。这些都应该形成法律的文件才好。

我不是法律专家， 只是来得早， 想得多一点。我喜欢Alex的话， 想说什么就说什么 :lol:

不得不说，这个事故出得真是时候啊。

同意Yin所说的，义务领队，签署法律文件明确免责条款。估计这事做起来也挺不容易，大家有律师朋友可以咨询吗？

另外可否要求户外社团出资投保liability insurance，不光是为了义工，也是为了他们自身的自我保护。

实在都做不到，最后的防线就是每个HIKER都要填的那个表格了。严格要求未完成表格的不能参加活动，在报名群里的微信记录应该可以作为法律凭据吧。

millie

这样看来，我们这个网站上填的免责声明单大概也没多大法律作用的。  ？？

lulululu

PanShiBo
In the past I was advised by a lawyer that in British Columbia it needs only $500 to take anybody to court for anything. So if someone dies on your trip, the relatives can easily sue you, even if the case is tossed out of court, you will go through hell, plus pay your lawyer. For that reason clubs such as BCMC carry liability insurance - that protects the trip organizer and the club from being sued. This is not travel emergency medical insurance, not life insurance and not climbing insurance - it is meant to protect from legal losses. Those who are not convinced how easy it is to being sued, can google for the accident on Mount Temple, most deadly to date on this peak, when a group of absolute beginners died because of own ignorance, and the relatives sued the park (Banff) for not providing the accurate weather conditions... they lost the case of course, but only after a nasty battle in court.. 8)

Is this one a Waver?
http://goo.gl/BWqMl

I am thinking to ask everyone trip participant to sign a paper copy of the waver before the trip, e.g.
https://bcmc.ca/bcmc_waiver_read.php

PanShiBo

lulululu
..
I am thinking to ask everyone trip participant to sign a paper copy of the waver before the trip, e.g.
https://bcmc.ca/bcmc_waiver_read.php

Yes it is the waiver, but it won't protect you from being sued, even though 99.99% you will win in court. Anybody can sue the trip organizer, signed waiver or not: they may know they will lose but still would want to make your life hard, or/and meaning to get "smaller" settlement out of court (read popular "Risk Aversion" tactics above). In the past I used to run a local technical alpine meetup, believing the signed waiver is just good enough, until a government persecution lawyer advised me, see above. Shortly after that I quickly closed that meetup and never looked back.

That BCMC waiver is there because it is required by the underwriter who provides the liability insurance - without the signed waiver the liability insurance will be voided. If only the waiver will work, why the club(s) would bother purchasing policies like that, which are very expensive?

I got to learn this stuff not from theory, but hard way from real events I was part of, unfortunately .

P.S. Now you may know why almost all technical trips and training (those with elevated likelihood to get hurt) I conduct only with BCMC. 8)

lulululu

Good discussion!

We go hiking, neither scrambling nor mountaineering. which I think it is much less risky than the technical trips.

We need to educate the trip participants very well (backcountry acknowledge and safety awareness) besides signing the paper waver (good idea!) which I will start to use if we call-out a hike.

Here is Wanderung Outdoor Recreation Society Liability Waiver and Indemnity Agreement:

https://lists.capalon.com/lists/listinfo/callout

ALEXYIM

看了這麼好的回覆.

了解到一點.
當有事故發生後, 領隊給人家告上法庭時.

要立即面對的問題是:
有沒有免費法律查詢呢?
誰負責替你招聘律師?
誰負責有關費用呢?

好像有liability insurance保障下, 最小應該會有免費法律查詢.
北美戶外, 我想應該沒有購買這種保險 (誰附錢?  :D ).
北美戶外, 我看只是一個通訊式的平台, 給大家一個免費的網頁. 這個我喜歡.

所以我的召集盡量是小組, 朋友互相認識的, (新人..最多佔一至二個位置).   你的召集又是怎麼樣的...?

稍後上了法庭, 要面對的問題會更多,法律,律師更是重要的一環.

millie

很感谢Alex一再提醒。   Alex是个很热心的领队。   
我们是一定要想好万一的。   万一出现问题你是否承担得起？你是否愿意承担？      万一出现问题最坏的打算是什么？    不能想没有万一。    比如我去Solo，比如我去爬雪山羊，我都很清楚万一的，我也可以接受承担万一，所以我去。   但我不愿带别人去，因为我不愿承担那万一。      比如说我开始的时候不愿带平中医去Harvey，因为我不愿承担那万一，后来我带她去了，因为我想好了愿意承担那万一。     所以如果你带一陌生的人去爬即使是最简单的，你也别认为没有万一，你要想好有什么样的万一，你愿不愿意承担那万一。   我想就是这么回事。    :D

millie

这不GG出现Cougar了吗？  什么情况都有可能发生。 :D  :D