June,30 Wedgemount Lake之行雪坡滑坠的惨痛教训

Flex

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Flex

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Flex

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jerrybj

[quote="Flex"]。。。[/quote]

Flex,
Where is my "free fall" pic, the best pic of the day? If u did not catch it, I am afraid nobody would do it any more, ha-ha.

These pix are highly appreciated.

jerrybj

[quote="英子"][quote="lulululu"]
下次大家在一起练习走雪坡。

Who will teach, LuLu or me?

色友

说句实在话，lulululu是我这么多年里面见过最尽职最让人放心的领导了，几次hiking时几个朋友聊天时感觉都是一致的。

各位野人级的hiking活动越来越高精尖了，出点事故是无法完全避免的，关键是总结教训，亡羊补牢，漏洞就会越来越少。

有些后怕，幸好我后来没有报名，否则，没有冰镐，体力透支，可能也会面临险境。一个人最重要的是要了解自己的各项状况，要勇于挑战，也要知进退。

最后，祝jerry早日恢复健康。

Happyatu

祝福
祝福
在祝福

windy

学习了。。。。。。

祝受伤的同学早日康复！

lulululu

lin
lulu,我今天想到一个问题.就是,当同伴雪地滑坠时,下面的队员如何在保障自身安全的情况下有效阻止同伴的滑坠?我记得这次当jerry滑坠时，citywander和ma hu都做了阻挡援救，（好像也用了冰镐）但结果是citywnder被一块带了下去，ma hu 也被撞的东倒西歪。你上次上课时有没有讲到这些呀．譬如，救援时冰镐的使用方法，救援位置，以及身体的姿势。如果大家学会了这些，加上掌握这次教的self arrest,我相信未来我们陡坡hiking会更安全。 :D

Ron, one of Yangzi and my teachers,wrote parts of "mountaineering: the freedom of the Hill" gave me the following reply:

Hi Gloria.  There is an annual publication called “ Accidents in North American Mountaineering” that is very good reading that analyzes incidents in the back country.  The Mountaineers here in Seattle do not allow people to go on trips that they do not qualify to go on without taking the course and demonstrating competence at the skills needed for any trip they want to go on. Even so, we occasionally still have accidents because some people still don’t react correctly even though they have the proper training. Usually, they fail to practice their skills and don’t take the proper action when something happens. It’s part of the business of leading wilderness trips.  Once a person starts sliding down a snowslope, it is impossible for anyone else to help them stop…  it is the duty of the victim to stop himself.  The only thing besides training everyone in self arrest technique, would be to belay them on a rope on steep slopes and that takes a lot of training for both the leader and the victim. We always carry a rope and require ALL participants to bring ice axes and know how to use them.  Even so, we still occasionally have incidents similar to yours. Thankfully, you experienced no major injury.  More training in mountaineering techniques will help you anticipate these things but there are no guarantees out there.  Good Luck.   Ron

more replies from our teachers Cynthia,Kreig and my friends Dru, Scott and Bob(they are all experienced mountaineers)

Hi Gloria…Ron is working at REI today so will answer your email tomorrow….I am sorry to hear about the person who got hurt on your trip.  I also fell once on a very steep and icy snow slope while doing a snow traverse in the North Cascades. Some conditions are very dangerous and a lot of attention and focus are necessary for every step. I had the wrong boots on that day and did not have enough purchase for the icy snow conditions. I was lucky to remember to dig my feet in and that is what stopped me..right on top of sharp ice and rocks! I never feel too over confident with my skills and let my guard down anymore! I avoid any steep, icy slope traverses if I do not have an ice axe and proper boots (3/4 to full shank) for a snow scramble. It is the way we are taught in the Mountaineers. I know that Ron will have more advice for you and he is very safe in the mountains and requires all of us to have the right gear and know how to use it…or we don’t go! I can see that Kreig is very safe too and good safety habits are what save lives. Being a leader as you are, has a lot of responsibility, and I sure understand why you are feeling so upset. I’m glad you were able to get him down without an incident. We all learn from these scary circumstances, and the one thing we always do is to sit down as a group afterwards and discuss what we could have done differently. I know that is what you are doing now, which shows what a good leader you are!!! Accidents happen and hopefully we all learn from our mistakes!

Cynthia

Yes Gloria,

You are correct, everyone on a trip should understand the requirements for equipment.  You as leader should always set the minimum standard for what is to be taken.  You should also only go to places that ALL persons have equipment to deal with a particular situation.

Maybe time for a belay rope for use in a large group.  You could pick up an 8.5mm rope just for such occasions. Of course you also need to know how to use properly.  Would be happy to work with you more on these skills.

You really cannot stop a person who is falling.  You plan to make sure people do not fall.  If a sitaution is dangerous, you can bo back where you come from and not continue.  best decision is to make decsion BEFORE getting into trouble.

I am not sure what date I will choose for Mt Baker.

hope this helps,  kreig

Gloria,

As group leader you should be making decisons for the group and they should follow you.  Did you listen to me often discussing our direction and situation with Ron?  I was looking for alternative points of view so I could make BEST desicions for the group. I also often asked what the group might want to do.  Communication is the most important.

Please read Freedom of the hills.  Also there are some publications on mountaineering accidents, you might be able to find soemthign on line.

does this help?

Kreig

Hey Gloria

Sorry to hear about your accident.

Yes, it sounds like ice axes for all party members would have helped.

Short of being roped together, there is no way to stop the slide of another person who falls.

Even when roped together, a falling climber can jerk other climbers off their feet. There have been some serious accidents on Mt Rainier and Mt Hood from this situation. One climber falls, the other climbers cannot self-arrest to hold the fall, and all roped climbers are pulled down the mountain together.

For this reason it's better to place snow protection, like pickets, if you are roped up, in any condition but soft snow.

I hope your injured friend makes a complete, and swift, recovery :)

Dru

Gloria,

Sounds like quite an adventure.  For the mountains above Wedgemount an ice axe would be a necessity.

Often is not so important how/why things happen - it is important how you deal with them.  It sounds like you handled it well.

As a leader, it can be difficult to deal with people that are overconfident or too ignorant to properly assess their limitations.

Things happen to everybody.  It can be a matter of luck or destiny whether they happen to you or not.  I guess the thing to learn from this is to be stern and strict on who you let come on your adventures.  I am quite strict with my wording on my invitations.  I'm sure that I could have twice as many people come out, but many are scared by my descriptions.  I prefer that to having somebody spoil the hike for everybody else or hurt themselves.  I have watched as somebody died from a heart attack because they weren't fit enough (not on one of my hikes). Scott

Hi Gloria,

Sounds like you had a traumatic experience this weekend and have lots
questions. It might be easier to talk about it instead of emailing questions
answers back and forth. If you do want to talk on the phone or in person let me
know.  Let me know
if I can help.


Bob

lin

从帖子里学到了很多，谢谢。

没想到你因为这件事做了这么多工作，跟着这么负责任的领队，想不提高hiking水平都不行! :D   

另外，别太自责，事情发生后你处理的已经非常好。而且从另外一个角度看，jerry的皮肉伤让我们学到了这么多东西，看到了不足之处，这对对未来hiking大有帮助啊。不过，这苦了jerry. :oops:

lulululu

:oops:  :oops:  :oops:
我自己也才hiking了三年的时间，我愿意学，向同伴们学，向有经验的学，学习总结纠错，积累经验才能保证爬得更开心和安全

英子

色友
说句实在话，lulululu是我这么多年里面见过最尽职最让人放心的领导了，几次hiking时几个朋友聊天时感觉都是一致的。

各位野人级的hiking活动越来越高精尖了，出点事故是无法完全避免的，关键是总结教训，亡羊补牢，漏洞就会越来越少。

有些后怕，幸好我后来没有报名，否则，没有冰镐，体力透支，可能也会面临险境。一个人最重要的是要了解自己的各项状况，要勇于挑战，也要知进退。

最后，祝jerry早日恢复健康。

出去Hiking 时，尽管组织发起者提前作了很多工作，尤其是Lulu, 了解Trail 概况，去其他网站找最近的Trip report, 找GPS 图等等，但在hiking 过程中只有自己才能对自己负责， 所以积累学习一些技巧，总结经验教训是很重要的。

常用的一些小知识：
1，衣服要穿快干的，不要穿全棉的，以免出汗，下雨后湿衣服贴在身上，造成失温。
2，衣服要穿分层的，这样热了可以脱，冷了可以加。
3，冷热穿脱衣服及时，不要偷懒。
4，饥饿，口渴时及时补充食物，水分，不要忍着。
5，夏天或简单hiking 时，有hiking 鞋，登山杖就可以了。冬天要有雪鞋，绑腿，防水手套等。
6，走陡雪坡时，要有冰斧，并会一些简单的使用方法。比如滑坠时如何自救，上坡时走Z字，下坡时自己开路走在新雪上，不要踩别人的脚印下。

滑过雪的朋友都知道，下蓝道的陡坡时是有技巧的。当身体和斜面成直角时时最稳的，越怕，身体越向斜坡靠，越容易失去平衡。

下陡雪坡也是一样的。

7，不要徒步，不结绳上冰川，万一掉进冰缝里就多半没戏了。（检讨一下：这事干过，以后不会再干了。）

8，接近有碎石的顶峰要戴头盔，比如black tusk.
9, 没有学过登山技巧，不要轻易去scrambling.
10,应急设备要随身携带，虽然经常用不上，但一旦用上就可以救命。比如：Emergency blanket, 火柴，头灯，急救包，哨子等。
11，不要完全依靠组织者，出发前要对trail 的情况有所了解：比如长度，高度，从哪里上，计划从哪里下，计划用时等等。
同样的长度，拔高不同，走起来难度大不相同。

12，要知道自己的limitaion。 每个人都有自己的弱处，稍微超出一点儿可以，不要勉强自己。比如说lulu 恐高，我怕走独木桥。
感觉不comfortable 时就说出来，不要push 自己太过。
只走过20公里的，可以参加22公里的，但不要去参加30公里的。


零零碎碎想起这些，希望对大家有些帮助。

lulululu

谢谢英子，这些都是非常有用的经验

马不停蹄

jerrybj
[quote]Flex
。。。

Flex,
Where is my "free fall" pic, the best pic of the day? If u did not catch it, I am afraid nobody would do it any more, ha-ha.

These pix are highly appreciated.[/quote]

Hi Jerry,

Please see the attached pics, I'm pretty sure this is the 60-70-deg slope where you played "free-fall". But not sure whether this is the begining of the free-fall or the end of the free fall. I did not post at the begining, a little bit afraid that you will feel 不堪回首.  anyway, enjoy and learn from the history. :) .

googoo

一个周末不在温哥华，原来发生这么大的事！
衷心希望Jerry早日康复。

jerrybj

[quote="googoo"]
衷心希望Jerry早日康复。[/quote]

Hi, hiking pals,

It is beyond my expectation that so many people concerning about my hurting. I am speechless to thank all ur kindness. I am quite sure I will be OK and back to rejoin our hiking club. The lesson I have learned is to be double cautious when the potential risk is at present. I am an adult and must respond to my own behaviors. So, LuLu, u have done more than enough to provide all info and protect all hikers. I am sure without ur advices, more people would get hurting. But I was the odds without taking ur advise and I would rather suffer the pain to taste the advices.

The good news is I put the sock on my left foot this morning. Yes, the my hip and leg are still pain and in black, and the medicine of pain killer is still in need. But the whole situation is much better improved.

Again, I would thank all of u deeply from my heart.

lulululu

刚和我们的老朋友Marjan和Alex Hudson通过电话，他们二人对Wedgemoung Lake Area非常熟悉，特别是Marjan，这一带可说是他的second home，光Mount Wedge就爬过十次以上。我表达了 以后想让他们领队爬这一带的山，二人都一口答应了:lol: 。

还聊到我们wedgemount Lake之行的事故，Alex Hudson建议的应急方法和citywander事后想到的方法一样：就是有冰镐的先下，然后多带根冰镐再上给没有冰镐的队友用，这样虽然慢些却安全很多。

千说万道，最重要的还是这种情况每人都要带冰镐。


FYI:

Marjan和Alex Hudson的两篇Trip Report

1.  Weart and Parkhurst (Wedgemount Lake Area, July 10th/11th 2007)
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22631

2.  Wedge Mtn. 4th/5th July - N. arete (Wegdemount Lake Area)
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22525